I was really surprised what a fast read this was - I got lucky and ds went to bed early last night so I had plenty of quiet time to read. Still surprised I finished so quickly though.

Anyway on to my question ;)

Am I the only one who was completely taken in by Snape? All the way up until the end I thought he was on Dumbledore's side. Even after he cursed Dumbledore and was running away, I fully expected him to stop and explain that he somehow had no choice and Dumbledore knew it. Did I miss something?

I sorta was, too. I finished it in one day, and I didn't spend the whole day reading.

I wanted to believe Snape was really on Dumbledore's side, but when he made that unbreakable vow w/Draco's mom, where he swore to do it if Draco couldn't, I knew he couldn't be. I wasn't satisfied w/the explanation of why Dumbledore trusted him all this time. It sounded very unconvincing to me.

Were you surprised that it was Dumbledore who died? When I read about the mission V had for Draco, my first thought was that he was supposed to kill Harry. It wasn't until about halfway through the book that I began to guess is would be Dumbledore.

What do you make of the note in the locket? There is another wizard out there who knew about V's horcrux, and is powerful enough to get through V's protective magic to get it. If this person got one, maybe he/she got more of them. Maybe Harry will have a new ally????

So, when does the next book come out???? I need to know how all this ends!:D

I'm thinking that Dumbledore wasn't pleading for his life but for "Severus" (a personal plea) to take it as maybe previously discussed and promised? Similar to how he made Harry promise those things before going after the Horcrux. I'm wondering if Dumbledore was the secret keeper for the Order of the Phoeni and at his weakened state didn't want anyone to be able to get the info through veristaserum or some other means... or for Voldemort or the Death Eaters to torture it out of him...so he pleaded with Snape to end it.

Also, what's up with the tomb bursting into flames and Harry 'thinking' he sees a pheonix flying into the sky? Sounds a bit like (oh geez...what's his name ?) the wizard from Lord of the Rings...and since Rowling pulls from all the literature out there, I wonder...hmmmmmmmm...

I'm not entirely thinking Snape is bad yet...although it does give me pause that he looked at Dumbledore with such hatred...but still.

At that R.A.B.... wow...there's something to keep our curiosity piqued until the next book!!!!!! :D

I wanted to add that Snape HAD to do the promise with Narcissa with Bellatrix there...no choice without sending up major red flags. He never even admitted he knew what Draco was up to...kinda skirted around until NARCISSA kept adding details...and I'm sure he read her mind at that point. It sounded to me like he was playing them trying to get what it was if you read the dialogue again.


Amy

I wanted to add that Snape HAD to do the promise with Narcissa with Bellatrix there...no choice without sending up major red flags. He never even admitted he knew what Draco was up to...kinda skirted around until NARCISSA kept adding details...and I'm sure he read her mind at that point. It sounded to me like he was playing them trying to get what it was if you read the dialogue again.

This was exactly how I had read it too! Which is why I thought Snape was good - I suppose he still could be. Afterall, if he had come back and explained himself at the end, there would be less suspense for the last book.

I also agree with you, Amy, about Dumbledore's plea. I thought it could be taken in either way - a plea for his life, or a plea to end it quickly. I couldn't decide which.

I wasn't satisfied w/the explanation of why Dumbledore trusted him all this time. It sounded very unconvincing to me.

Me neither. I kept expecting something more.

I wonder if Dumbledore will return as a Pheonix in book 7 to guide and protect Harry.

I wonder if Dumbledore will return as a Pheonix in book 7 to guide and protect Harry.

Ooooooohhhhhhh, now there's a theory... and other's have wondered about why the phoenix was so loyal to Dumbledore... wow...something to think about.


I wasn't satisfied w/the explanation of why Dumbledore trusted him all this time. It sounded very unconvincing to me.

I thought so too...but what DOES Harry know other than what Dumbledore said? He kept telling Harry there was more and I'm sure there's more to the trust than Snape 'saying' he'd turned... something's missing there.

Amy

Well i just finished the book and after blowing my nose a million times i am shocked that dumbledore is dead!! (i know he's not a real person, he's fiction but STILL :bawl: )
I never thought in a million years he would be the one to die in book 6--i expected in the last one though....
Anyway i had always sided with Dumbledore that snape was really on their side but after he made the unbreakable vow with draco's mother, i knew harry had been right to mistrust him. I honestly do not believe, and who knows i may be proven wrong in book 7, that dumbledore dying was part of a plan between him and snape. I think dumbledore would've prepared harry more if he knew he was going to die soon. Not to mention when he said "severus...." the way he did i think it was more a surprising this can't be true sort of plea. Even dumbl. said it himself--he's wrong sometimes and i think at that moment he realized it was one of those times. :(
I just can't imagine a book 7 not set at Hogwarts if harry really is setting out to do what he is determined to. The book was phenomenal. :thumbsup: I hope it's not another 2 yr wait for the next one. :eek: i just can't see Harry being able to find out where those horcruxes are on his own. Whoever R.A.B is i hope he's a dumbeldore-like character. I swear i'm going to be thinking about this book all week..........:shakehead

OMG - I was sobbing as I was reading the part!! I cannot believe that Snape was such a two-faced person!! I actually voted for him as my fave character!

And now Dumbledore dead :cry:
I feel so sad, and I kept telling myself that there must be some greater reason that Dumbledore trusted him.

If Dumbledore, the greatest wizzard of all times, could erroneously trust Snape, I think we may be forgiven for doing so too.

Excuse me for a moment... I need to blow my nose! :bawl:

I kind of suspected that dumbledore had to die. It is the only way that Harry could truely come into his own. It has to end with harry and voldy - mano a mano. That would never happen with dumbledore alive, he would always have Harry's back.

As for Snape, I believe that he is bad and always was. He was playing both sides, he had to truely belong to one or the other. His skill at Occlumency meant he was fooling on of the two greatest wizards in the world - there was a 50-50 chance that it was dumbledore. I think his treatment of Harry all this time - even while inside the walls of grimauld place, where it would have been okay to let down the act a bit, was some proof of his true alligiance. As dumbledore said himself, he doesn't make many mistakes, but when he does, they are huge. This was one of those mistakes.

Oh, and as for the letter with the false horcrux, I think it is Sirius' brother Regilus (sorry if the spelling is off, I don't have my books on vacation with me to look up the proper spelling). The initials fit. Regilus got far inside the deatheaters before realizing that he didn't want to be there, and then was killed very shortly after trying to walk away. Maybe he didn't just try to walk away, maybe he decided to take a piece of voldy with him.

OK my book just hit the wall, UHG, another paint job for me. I have to go by some more kleenex now!!!!

Oh, and as for the letter with the false horcrux, I think it is Sirius' brother Regilus (sorry if the spelling is off, I don't have my books on vacation with me to look up the proper spelling). The initials fit. Regilus got far inside the deatheaters before realizing that he didn't want to be there, and then was killed very shortly after trying to walk away. Maybe he didn't just try to walk away, maybe he decided to take a piece of voldy with him.

Nicely done Brina!!! I think you've got it....i've been thinking about R.A.B and wracking my brain trying to figure out who that is.....buti do think you may be onto something. So you think he did this before he died or you think he's still alive?? Even though he's supposed to be dead, he may not be. Look at Barty Crouch's son who was supposed to be dead. Hmmmmm......it sure will be a long wait!!!

OK my book just hit the wall, UHG, another paint job for me. I have to go by some more kleenex now!!!!

:hug:
I didn't chuck the book this time as i did with sirius' death mainly because i was shocked too much. I knew dumbledore would die eventually but not then at that time with those people and Snape of all people doing it.....
I just re-read avada kadevra(sp?) a million times and started bawling.....

Do you remember that Harry found a locket at Sirius' house when they were cleaning? A locket no one could open..? It very well could be that Regulus Black got the horcrux...

I read an interesting post on the forums at the leaky cauldron website last night. While it was the longest post I have ever seen, the poster made some good points. He (I guess) was explaining why he thinks Dumbledore died, why he trusted Snape really, and why Snape really is on the side of the good guys. The main point that struck me was why D really trusted Snape, as JKR's explanation was very weak, IMO, to say the least. In this poster's opinion, Snape, who was very close to V and very high up in his ranks, came to D and told him the secret to V's immortality and the only way to defeat him, by destroying the horcruxes. Such info would obviously do more to make D trust him. He also thinks that D knew about the unbreakable vow Snape had made, and that D actually wanted Snape to kill him rather than Snape dying for breaking his vow, for two reasons. One to protect Draco, and two, so Snape could help Harry in finding and destroying the horcruxes.

As I said, it was very interesting, and very, very long. It was more like an essay, but I thought he made some valid points.

Here is a link to it, if you're interested:
http://www.leakylounge.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=89;t=6875;&#top

Wow, I have too much to think about, but agree with you, Brina, there has to still be a Black floating around in this.

With the amount of Horcruxes (sp?) Horcrucxi? left, seems like there's more then one book left in this story, and now that they may not be set at Hogwarts, won't have to run cocurrent with Harry's school career.

Oh, and wanted to add...if Snape were truly 150% inside & out evil, wouldn't he have tried something a bit more cruel and painful on Dumbledore then an immediate death curse?

I have just finished reading HBP and words cannot express the sadness and horror I felt at Dumbledore's death! I need a minute to exhale and then I will come back w/ questions and thoughts.

I also think Brina is right about R.A.B. That would make a lot of sense.

He also thinks that D knew about the unbreakable vow Snape had made, and that D actually wanted Snape to kill him rather than Snape dying for breaking his vow

I had thought this as well because of the argument that was overheard between Snape and Dumbledore.

Oh, and as for the letter with the false horcrux, I think it is Sirius' brother Regilus (sorry if the spelling is off, I don't have my books on vacation with me to look up the proper spelling). The initials fit. Regilus got far inside the deatheaters before realizing that he didn't want to be there, and then was killed very shortly after trying to walk away. Maybe he didn't just try to walk away, maybe he decided to take a piece of voldy with him.

I agree I think R.A.B. Is Regulus Black, I also wonder if at least of of the Horcrux are hidding in 12 Grimmauld place in the stuff Kreator kept trying to take and hide. It would make it interesting that Harry is now the owner.

a couple of things.

I know I said I now believe Snape is evil, but there is one thing that still has me thinking, maybe not. did dumbledore implore snape to save him...or to kill him? things he has said in the past (in book one to be exact), tell us that he does not fear death. perhaps, he knew that he had to die to save harry, and saving harry is the important thing. perhaps, his pleading to snape was to do what he was asking and kill him.

could one of the horcrux's be godrick griffyndor's sword? they talked about helga hufflepuff's cup and of course the things that belonged to slytherin- and something of ravenclaw's and something of griffyndor's. maybe voldy wants to get into howarts so badly because one of the horcruxes is there - griffyndor's sword. it is the only griffyndor relic we have ever heard of.

there is something we are going to learn about lily - something big. over and over in this book we get pounded with the fact that she was very good at potions. over and over in all the books we have been told harry has her eyes. in the first book, at olivanders, we learn that james's wand was very good for transfiguration - which turned out to be important to the story, and that lily's wand was good for charms. so, good at potions and charms and had green eyes like her son. not sure what it will add up to, but seems important.

a couple of things.

I

could one of the horcrux's be godrick griffyndor's sword? they talked about helga hufflepuff's cup and of course the things that belonged to slytherin- and something of ravenclaw's and something of griffyndor's. maybe voldy wants to get into howarts so badly because one of the horcruxes is there - griffyndor's sword. it is the only griffyndor relic we have ever heard of.

.

I thought this also, by the way Dumbledor went on to Voldy about you want something here, but it is not to teach!

Hmmm... I had never really thought about it being Regulus Black. That's interesting, but I doubt that he is still alive. The house elf, Kreacher, now (unwillingly) obeys Harry. If Regulus were still alive, wouldn't Kreacher belong to him - the last of the remaining male Blacks?

I cannot imagine Book 7 not being set in Hogwarts though.

Hmmm... I had never really thought about it being Regulus Black. That's interesting, but I doubt that he is still alive. The house elf, Kreacher, now (unwillingly) obeys Harry. If Regulus were still alive, wouldn't Kreacher belong to him - the last of the remaining male Blacks?

I cannot imagine Book 7 not being set in Hogwarts though.

I agree I don't think Regulus is alive, I think he got the Horcrux before he was killed. I think as they talk about in OOP he got in deep and discovered what Voldamort was really up to, and that is why he wanted out.

I think I am becoming a little obsessed, I may have to take a break from HarryPotter till the Movie comes out LOL

Wow that post on leaky cauldron definitely was worth the read. :thumbsup:
Got me thinking things over very carefully. Even about the first thing Snape had his DADA students learning about right at the start of the year...:hmm: And i had sort of forgotten his argument with Dumbl. that Hagrid overheard. That poster makes some darn good points i tell you what!!
Maybe snape really didn't want to kill Dumbledore and that look of revulsion on his face before doing it was because he had to concede that Harry was the last and only hope against Voldemort. :confused:
Hmmm very interesting! Thanks for posting that link.......

I wanted to add that Snape HAD to do the promise with Narcissa with Bellatrix there...no choice without sending up major red flags. He never even admitted he knew what Draco was up to...kinda skirted around until NARCISSA kept adding details...and I'm sure he read her mind at that point. It sounded to me like he was playing them trying to get what it was if you read the dialogue again.

My theory (judging by the wording of the things Snape says in that chapter) is that he didn't know what the plan was, but knew he had to find out. By making the vow to her, he found out what it was, and also ensured that they would trust him absolutely.

I think that when Dumbledore and Snape were arguing coming out of the forest, it was because Dumbledore had told Snape that if the time came, he'd have to kill him to prevent Malfoy from doing it. He knew that the only way for Snape to remain trusted by the Death Eaters was to have him keep his vow. I also think that when Dumbledore said "Severus, please ..." he was begging Snape to kill him. For whatever reason, keeping Snape undercover was more important to Dumbledore than his own life.

The only thing I don't understand is why, if Snape really is working against Voldemort, he clearly hates Harry so much. I also don't understand why Dumbledore didn't confide in someone about why he trusts Snape. Because he didn't, the Order no longer trusts Snape. (I'll bet Dumbledore left something behind to explain it, though, and we'll learn more in Book 7.)

I agree I don't think Regulus is alive, I think he got the Horcrux before he was killed.

Didn't the note say something about "By the time you find this, I will be long dead"?

Oh, and wanted to add...if Snape were truly 150% inside & out evil, wouldn't he have tried something a bit more cruel and painful on Dumbledore then an immediate death curse?

Yep. And if he REALLY wanted Dumbledore dead, why didn't he refuse to treat his blackened hand and just let him die from that?

there is something we are going to learn about lily - something big. over and over in this book we get pounded with the fact that she was very good at potions. over and over in all the books we have been told harry has her eyes. in the first book, at olivanders, we learn that james's wand was very good for transfiguration - which turned out to be important to the story, and that lily's wand was good for charms. so, good at potions and charms and had green eyes like her son. not sure what it will add up to, but seems important.

My guess is that Snape was secretly in love with her, and helped her with Potions (which is why she was good at Potions). It's probably also why he's helping Harry now ... because he feels so guilty about causing her death, and because Harry has her eyes. He still hates Harry, though, because he looks and acts more like James.

I think Dumbledore and Snape had an unspoken communication. I think two things: 1) that Dumbledore knew he had gone with the poison so long he was going to die anyway and 2) that he could not bear for Draco to commit murder, so he asked Snape to kill him (legilimens). I have a hard time believing that Dumbledore would be wrong in trusting Snape.

Brina...I think RAB is Regulus too. I think it would be neat to learn that Sirius' brother wasn't as flakey as Sirius thought. Also...nice way to end the Black family...both brothers fighting Voldemort.

As for book 7...I can't imagine the book not being set at Hogwarts either. I wonder if Dumbledore will have a will or something that convinces Harry to go back to Hogwarts for a time. But...how will Harry hunt down all the Horcruxes if he's at Hogwarts? Hmmm... Also... I do NOT get the impression Harry is ready to fight Voldemort. He couldn't even take on SNAPE for goodness sake!!!

Was anyone else kinda bummed by the lack of detail in this book? I guess I'm spoiled by 4 and 5 because they had all this intense detail. This seemed to be thin in many areas.

Well, I just finished the book and have reread the end several times.

I don't think Snape is the bad person they've painted him. It seems to me that he had numerous occasions to kill Harry or let Death Eaters kill him and yet each time he thwarts it from happening. It also seems to me that Dumbledore was pleading with him to do what he wanted. Dumbledore said over and over in the book that he had his reasons for trusting Snape and that they were sound reasons. Also, Dumbledore obviously could tell when he was being lied to in any way. He picked up on Tom Riddle being less than savoury right from the beginning.

It also crossed my mind Christine that Harry is not ready to fight Voldemort yet. Snape was easily fending off his spells at the end of the book. He needs more schooling so I think Hogwarts will be involved in some way.

Im not sure that Regulus is RAB. If you go back and read what Sirius says about him, it states that he became a Death Eater and then tried to back out. Voldemort killed him very soon after that. Sirius describes him as weak and as a idiot. I don't see how he could have done everything that Dumbledore did to get the Horcrux since he was so easily and quickly killed by Voldemort. I think it would have taken someone with far more wizardry and ability to manage to get the Horcrux.

Also, regarding Snape, if you remember in Goblet of Fire, Voldemort looks at all the Death Eaters surrounding him, names each of them in turn and says that there are 6 missing. He says that 3 are dead in his service, that 1 is too cowardly to return and will pay for it, that 1 has left him forever and will be killed of course and that 1 (Barty Crouch) remains his faithful servant and has already re-entered his service.

If that's all the DeathEaters, then Snape has to be either the one too cowardly to return or the one who has left him forever. I think Snape is on Dumbledores side and acted as Dumbledore directed him. During the entire speech that Voldemort makes, he keeps referring to his "one" faithful servant at Hogworts and we later learn that it's Barty Crouch impersonating Moody.

The one too cowardly to return would've then been Karakaroff -- book 6 says at the beginning that he got killed... he was the headmaster of Krum's school, remember? So Snape must be the one who's left him forever? If that's so, then wouldn't Voldemort be after him or something? Hmmm....

Amy

I do NOT get the impression Harry is ready to fight Voldemort. He couldn't even take on SNAPE for goodness sake!!!

First of all, let me say that I loved Book 6.

That said, I was VERY disappointed that that J.K. Rowling didn't make more of Snape's teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts. She'd built up to that in all the previous books. He really, really wanted the job, and knew the subject inside and out. But when Snape finally gets the job in Book 6, she barely mentions it again. I would have thought she'd have him teach the students some really nasty spells, creative ways to defend themselves against dark wizards, spells he'd created, etc. You know, to help Harry and his friends learn ways of defeating Voldemort?

As you said, it was clear at the end of the book that Harry is nowhere near ready to take on Voldemort. He couldn't even take on Snape.

A side note ... was anyone else surprised that Dumbledore didn't do a nonverbal spell against Draco or the Death Eaters, therefore saving himself? After all the emphasis on nonverbal spells throughout the book, I figured he (or even Harry) would do one then. But they didn't.

I agree that Harry is not ready to take on Voldy. I think book 7 is going to be a kind of quest. Harry is going on a voyage of discovery and learning -both about himself, and the magic that he will need to take on voldy. Think of the empire strikes back. Harry will learn from the people that he meets along his way, little bits here and there that will add up to the ability to take on voldemort.

I think JKR is doing a double-double-cross on us. She spent this whole book trying to make us think bad of Snape, and yet dropping these little clues that he is not all bad. I think dumbledore was pleading with snape to end his life, not save it. He knew that it would save snape (who would die due to the unbreakable vow if he did not help draco in his task) and save harry.

Snape spent most of his time this book doing things that would help harry in the long run: teaching about unspoken spells, not taking the potions book from Harry (I think he had to know that harry had it - he could have just picked it up via occlumency, and when harry performed that spell on draco, it certainly gave it away) he did not do anything to harm harry as they were running across hogwarts grounds to hogsmead - he could have magically bound harry and taken him to voldemort, but he didn't, he just kept blocking his spells. finally, he even instructed harry that he had to learn to shield his thoughts in order to effectively fight against voldemort. Now granted, he could have done a better job of teaching harry occlumency, instead of getting his own feelings in the way, but he was instructing him at the end.

Snape has to be either the one too cowardly to return or the one who has left him forever

Snape addresses this himself when nacissa and bellatrix are in his house. he says that voldemort thought that he would never return, but when he did, albeit a few hours later, voldemort understood what he was up to and forgave him, even instucting him to continue to spy on dumbledore.

A side note ... was anyone else surprised that Dumbledore didn't do a nonverbal spell against Draco or the Death Eaters, therefore saving himself? After all the emphasis on nonverbal spells throughout the book, I figured he (or even Harry) would do one then. But they didn't.

his last chance to do a non-verbal spell before losing his wand was to freeze harry.

Also, Dumbledore obviously could tell when he was being lied to in any way.

But voldemort is very skilled at legilimins as well. Snape is obviously very talented at occlumency, as he is fooling one of the two greatest at this art, either dumbledore or voldemort.

Just finished. I too thought it went very fast; much faster than previous books and I am not sure why, unless besides Slughorn and the new Minister, there really were not new characters, and therefore new relationships, to introduce and flesh out.

I think Snape agreed to the unbreakable vow without knowing what it was. I think Dumbledore knew what he was doing, both in trusting Snape and all the way up to the method and timing of his death.

I can't STAND that Max and I waited all this time for this book, read it in one after the other in three days and now have to wait YEARS for the next installment! Did you notice how she had Harry think at the end that when he faced Voldemort it could be next week, next month or in 10 YEARS, something like that? Hope that wasn't her warning her readers to be patient, now that her personal life has changed and she is maybe writing at a slower pace!

Did you notice how she had Harry think at the end that when he faced Voldemort it could be next week, next month or in 10 YEARS, something like that? Hope that wasn't her warning her readers to be patient, now that her personal life has changed and she is maybe writing at a slower pace!

Now that would be just weird to come to the next book and Harry is suddenly a lot older and wiser...like Luke in Return of the Jedi... I hope that doesn't happen...part of the fun of these books is watching him grow...we'd miss too much the other way. :(

Amy

What a cool board this is. My DH has been making fun of me all weekend (lovingly) It is great to know there are other Harry Potter lovers out there. I too cried hysterically after Dumbledore died. I was horrified that it was Snape. I thought he was on the good side. He could still be. They had the chance to kill Harry while running towards the forbidden forest but told the Death Eaters not to. He also killed Dumbledore quickly not like the curses that drive you insane with pain. I don't know. I knew Dumbledore was going to die just not like that..........Colleen

Wow! I sorta figured D would die so that a final showdown with Harry and Voldemort could take place in book 7. As long as D is alive he would protect Harry...his last act of freezing him was to protect him.

Snape...after the chapter on the unbreakable vow I was certain he was going to be the one to kill D. Now is he good or evil, I have to side with good. He is showing signs (especially towards Draco and even towards Harry) of love, evil does not love. At the end he could have easily just left Harry standing there, but he gives him information on defeating the Dark Lord. The unbreakable vow is still there so I do believe Snape will die saving Draco and that Draco will help Harry in his quest to find the horcruxes and defeat V.

I also think more than one horcrux is in Hogwarts. What about the Gryffindorf hourglass with the rubies? It is mention several times in the last 50 pages.

The unbreakable vow is still there so I do believe Snape will die saving Draco and that Draco will help Harry in his quest to find the horcruxes and defeat V.

I also think more than one horcrux is in Hogwarts. What about the Gryffindorf hourglass with the rubies? It is mention several times in the last 50 pages.

I'll bet you're right about Snape saving Draco (probably by sacrificing himself), and Draco somehow helping Harry defeat V. That makes a lot of sense. There has to be some significance in Dumbledore wanting Snape to protect Draco (which, I think, is why Dumbledore begged Snape to kill him so that Draco wouldn't become a killer).

I'll also bet you're right about the hourglass. :)

I just finished reading the book. I procrastinated reading the end because the scence before they went to retrieved the horcrux screamed "Dumbledore is going to die soon!!" I couldn't face it. My dh is wondering why I am so glum. "Its only a book"

I went to the leaky cauldron link. I agree...good read. Snape had no choice to help Malfroy since he took the vow. It wouldn't be a good read if Snape died. Readers would be applauding.

Does anyone else notice how after 6 years of school, Harry's magic is still basic. They kept mentioning his mother was good at potions. What is Harry good at? He had only one more year. Do the students get there true training in the real world?

Ok...question...portraits of past headmasters... They had conversations with Dumbledore and now Dumbledore's portrait is there. Does that mean he can still communicate with people who are in the office?